This could alternately be titled: Is the Christian race already finished for us or do we actually have to run it ourselves?
You could also title this: Dohse comes out of the closet as still being a Calvinist.
This began as a comment responding to a comment by Dohse on his post “Once Justified, Perfectly Justified – For those who claim a Believer can lose his Salvation or become Unjustified“. In response to a few comments I made, he said:
“You confuse gift with reward. Justification is a gift and sanctification is for reward. You can’t run in a race that is already finished. You also confuse salvation and redemption.“
Yes, you really read that! Dohse said that the Christian race is already finished for you and you not only don’t have to run it, but can’t run it! So much for his “I rejected Calvinism” stich.
[And below is my response, with a few typos corrected and a few things added. If he approved/approves my comment I guess you can see the typo-ridden version over there.]
No, I just have Biblical definitions for all these terms rather than Augustinian ones.
Justification is being recognized as a valid candidate for baptism. Sanctification is a prerequisite for the reward of making it to heaven–“pursue holiness without which nobody will see the Lord” Paul says. (Well, its Hebrews 12:14 so maybe its Barnabas that says it.) Paul tells us we are running in a race (I think I already gave you the passages [I did, 1st Cor 9, is 2nd Timothy 2:5]), so your claim that the race is over is antipaul. As a recovering antipaulinist, I’m appalled. And I don’t confuse salvation and redemption, you do. Salvation is being saved from your immorality; redemption is the resurrection. Paul says in one place, “And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.” (Rom 8:23) Yet, he also speaks of a possibility of being disqualified from that redemption, lest you take this thing about the Holy Spirit as a firstfruits as meaning OSAS, for he also says in Philippians 3:11-14
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
If the race is already finished, as you say, and there is no point to run it, because its finished, then how is it that Paul didn’t consider himself to have already attained but keeps pressing forward toward the prize?
Or again, when Paul says in 2nd Timothy 4:6-8
For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
i.e. what is the point of fighting the good fight, or of finishing the course, if the race is already finished for us?
See, Dohse, the problem with you so-called “Paulinists” is you don’t even bother to read Paul. You bury your heads in the most complicated portions of Romans and Galatians and ignore everything that is written plainly. Romans and Galatians, it must sadly be admitted, are poorly written in such a style as to be nearly incomprehensible most of the time. But the so-called “minor” epistles, like Thessalonians, and the Pastorals, are written in a style that is as plain as day. So the modus operandi of Protestantism is to pretend those plain epistles don’t exist and to confuse everyone with Romans and Galatians. And that’s all you are doing yourself. Do yourself a favor and go read the supposedly “minor” epistles, because TRUE Christianity is based more on those, and always has been. Romans and Galatians are the basis for HERESY, not that Paul wrote heresy [not intentionally, anyway], but that without reading the other epistles first we don’t know what the hell Paul meant in Romans and Galatians because he apparently lost his ability to write before writing them, or maybe they were his first attempts to write in Greek and he still didn’t have a good command of the language, or maybe they were originally written in the Latin and Galatian languages and our Greek translation is a really crappy translation. Who knows what happened [e.g. they could even be forgeries], but by a comparison of Romans/Galatians to the rest of the epistles, we can tell they are defective in some way, so any TRUE Christian goes to the supposedly “minor” epistles and makes sure he understand them first, then he interprets Romans/Galatians through THEIR lens. In fact, before even going to the “minor” epistles, a true Christian understand the gospels and Acts, then goes to the “minor” epistles, and only then will he touch Romans/Galatians with a ten foot pole. That is all.
By the way, this is my second post responding to the nonsense Dohse posted in that blogpost. The first was Baptists just can’t give up their constant attacks on the gospel. I’ll admit to being too worked up over this. I guess its disappointment in Dohse. I thought his little TANC movement might amount to something. But its just another New Calvinist movement in different garb. The whole thing is a deflection. He pretends to be against Calvinist only so he can then sneak Calvinism on you in the form of OSAS. You see that he said the Christian has no race to run, its already run for you. Well, that’s Calvinism. What else could it be? How is saying that the Christian has no race to run and that’s its already run for you much different from saying basically that Jesus obeys for you? Its Calvinism pure and simple, so take all the heat in these two posts as just pure disgust with Dohse wasting what looked like it had promise. TANC is dead. Its joined the ranks of Mark Driscol and Piper. I almost wouldn’t be surprised if we found out in a few years that Piper was funding it.
I’m not even going to go to Paul’s Passing Thoughts anymore. Its just a waste of time. How can someone read a passage saying…well, I didn’t quote the best passage did I. Hebrews 12 is more clear than 1st Corinthians 9: “And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us.” Maybe if I had used that one, Dohse wouldn’t have said “You can’t run in a race that is already finished.” Or am I giving him too much credit? Probably I am. Yes, I am, because 1st Corinthians 9:24 is actually even clearer than Hebrews 12, saying “Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.” It not only tells us that we have to run, but that we have to run in order to obtain, which demolishes OSAS for sure. So yes, I’m done with Paul’s Passing Thoughts. His thoughts have passed and there wasn’t much to them. His only reason for rejecting Calvinism (as he claims) to begin with was because it threatened his precious OSAS (or so he thought) but anyone who really knows what Calvinism is knows that OSAS is Calvinism and Calvinism is OSAS. He’s clinging to Calvinism and he rejects Calvinism because Calvinism threatens Calvinism, basically. Well, yeah, Calvinism is self-contradictory, but really? This dude is so confused, even to the point of no return. So I’m done with that blog. Plus, if I blog more on positive stuff rather than responses to his Calvinism, I’ll feel better.
But I do want to thank Dohse because he has helped me a lot. Dohse, Debating you has been good therapy to help me get over my antipaulinism. Especially on this OSAS stuff, because seeing how easy it is to defeat it with Paul–honestly its like swatting a fly by dropping a MAC truck on it–has helped me see that Paul isn’t the problem after all. The problem is people not reading the so-called “minor” epistles but only Galatians and Romans which they aren’t equipped to understand because they ignore the whole rest of the Bible, but mostly they ignore Paul’s other epistles. Thanks for helping through my antipaulinism, and now I’m out.